STEVE INSKEEP, HOST:
Judge Kathleen Williams says she chose to examine the president's settlement with himself at the request of 35 former federal judges. They wrote a letter. One of those judges is John Jones III, appointed by President George W. Bush, who served for many years and is now president of Dickinson College. Judge, welcome.
JOHN JONES III: Good morning, Steve.
INSKEEP: What strikes you when you read the judge's statement? I mean Judge Williams here.
JONES: Well, it looks like Judge Williams may have been looking for an opportunity, Steve, to open this case. And, of course, I and my retired judge colleagues gave her that opportunity by filing a motion to have her do that. The order itself I would characterize as terse and rather ominous because what she invokes in the order is Federal Rule of Civil Procedure 11. And broken down in sort of layperson's parlance, Rule 11 requires that lawyers be honest and reasonable when filing lawsuits and they not do so for an improper purpose. Here, the fear is collusion, which would be an improper purpose. And if you violate Rule 11, you can be sanctioned. And she's warning right up front that she may do that.
INSKEEP: When we talk about collusion, what we mean is, the president was effectively on both sides of this case, and therefore, the lawyers on both sides of this case. The question she's asking anyway is, did they collude to make this case go away?
JONES: Well, that's exactly right. And she, as your reporter said, she identified that as an issue before the settlement, ordered briefing, if we remember the timing. And then several days before the briefs were due, they pulled the suit down. The plaintiffs did.
Notably, the defendants did not even enter an appearance. They didn't interpose a defense in the case. There's nobody on the side of the agencies, which is pretty remarkable. And in her order, she commented that she understood that there was a memo that sort of sketched out a defense, including the statute of limitations and some other defenses. And despite that memo, no defense whatsoever was interposed against the suit.
INSKEEP: I guess we should be clear. When we say no defense was interposed, what you're saying is that we, the taxpayers, had nobody speaking for us. The government is supposed to speak for us, works for us. But instead, they seem to have stood aside for the citizen who was aggrieved and was able to give them orders, the president.
JONES: Bluntly, Steve, they rolled over and played dead. (Laughter) You know, this is a massive lawsuit. And they defended lawsuits of this nature before. There were other people who had their returns leaked, and the government did defend those lawsuits. So in this particular case, it was notable to the judge that they didn't even try. And that is, you know, I think, pretty unprecedented.
INSKEEP: Very briefly, should the president have been entitled to something? I mean, there was this third-party contractor who seems to have leaked his tax returns.
JONES: Well, I think you probably could firewall the sort of collusive nature of the suit if you tried to do it. I'm not sure precisely how but there may have been a way to do it. But that's not what happened here. And, you know, you have this settlement that occurs surreptitiously and, really, beyond the parameters of what the subject matter was in the suit. And that flies in the face, as the judge also pointed out, of the Justice Manual. So, you know, it's not a normal settlement by any stretch of the imagination.
INSKEEP: Beyond the parameters. Of course, what you mean is the settlement is not about tax leakage. It's about January 6. Judge, thanks so much.
JONES: Yes, for personal damages. That's right.
INSKEEP: That's former federal judge John Jones III. Appreciate your insights. Thank you, sir.
JONES: Thanks, Steve.
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